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Cheltenhamshire November 17, 2008 10:37 AM

Whilst you say we shouldn't dwell on what they may or may not have been doing.....you can't!  If you want the roads flled with uninsured or drunken drivers then yes, get the police to never stop  / chase / do policing of the of these people.  But then instead you will hear stories of kids being mown down by drunken drivers, joyriders etc like we had in the past.  My concern is not for the idiots who did not stop and died but for the possible innocents that could get hurt or killed by these chases.  But if you do not have them, the chaos that no deterrent will encourage will be far worse.

TegTypeR November 17, 2008 10:57 AM

There is a simple solution to this.  Get more police back on the roads (stop spending the money on speed camera's), arm each panda car with a stinger and give all drivers the proper training.

With more police out there, they could have intercepted this car earlier, avoiding the chase and the incident.

stopitjon November 17, 2008 11:45 AM

To be honest I haven't followed this story, but if the people who died were the ones who were fleeing then they killed themselves.  You can't possibly blame the police.

If the police driver had slammed into an innocent bystander that would of course be different.

wallabytoo November 17, 2008 11:48 AM

Sorry Mr. Hallet, but I don't think you can say "Let’s not dwell on what they may, or may not have been doing wrong".   We live in an increasingly lawless society.  

I for one would be far more horrified if the Health and Safety / Human Rights obsessed brigade are listened to on this one!  

I can respect the feelings of grieving relatives but the youngsters who raced away from police are the creators of their own tragedy...

ordinary bloke November 17, 2008 11:51 AM

There seem to be too many of this type of incident, whether there are or they are just reported more widely I don't know. I would have thought that the police could avoid almost all chases; I recall a senior officer pointing out in an interview some years ago that no police pursuit car could be as fast as the speed of a radio communication. with the use of helicopters to pinpoint the criminal vehicle and other vehicles in place to lay stingers etc ahead of the offender (who need not even been aware of being located from the air) there would be no need for high speed chases putting either police, criminals or by-standers at risk. Maybe I'm being too simplistic though.

W124 November 17, 2008 11:55 AM

The Police have a responsibility to the public not to put people's lives at risk.  The danger to the passer by is too great.  Apprehending criminals does not justify putting ordinary people in mortal danger.  I often see Police cars take insane risks with absolutely no consideration of the consequences.  If a chase is going to ensue through a densely populated urban area then you have to ask if it's worth it.  Remember if you are dealing with bad lads - the more dangerous they are and the more serious the crime, the greater the risk they will take to get away.  If it's just some divs who have stolen a motor then there's no justification for risking anybody else's life...  To these people the Police are no deterrent - they couldn't give a monkeys about the police, chase or no chase.  Our roads are already full of the uninsured, the drunk and the mad - I'm not convinced that high speed chases are a very good way of dealing with them.  I hope, and guess, they are a last resort tactic for the force these days and maybe they use helicopters and surveillance as much as they can.  If they are going to risk injury and mortality for the general populace I should like to see some open justification of the risks when people, especially members of the public, do get hurt.  I have some personal experience of this and would not wish it on anybody...

andylevitt November 17, 2008 12:39 PM

Give your head a shake Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im a serving Police Officer and I my view is probaly a view of most Police officers.

If the people in the car had stopped then they wouldnt be in a morgue as they are now.

your on patrol and you see a vehicle and it makes off your first instinct is to stop the vehicle.

I understand your view but the police are not to blame.

andylevitt November 17, 2008 12:39 PM

Give your head a shake Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im a serving Police Officer and I my view is probaly a view of most Police officers.

If the people in the car had stopped then they wouldnt be in a morgue as they are now.

your on patrol and you see a vehicle and it makes off your first instinct is to stop the vehicle.

I understand your view but the police are not to blame.

W124 November 17, 2008 12:53 PM

Under what circumstances do you instigate a high speed chase though?

Does it have to be suspicion of serious crime?  If a car just refuses to stop is that enough?  I'm not applying any kind of judgement - I'd just like to know is all.

nicfaz November 17, 2008 1:50 PM

I agree it is a complex situation, but you have to appreciate the knock-on effects of failing to persue.  Everyone who doesn't care about being traced by their number plate would automatically drive like loon when seeing a police car simply to make the police back-off. The criminal then gets away with whatever they were doing automatically (speeding / drinking / drug use / escaping the scene of crime / being uninsured / etc... / etc...).  Effective policing requires the criminal to know that there is a very high chance of being apprehended once they've been seen.  

I would rather the police tried to catch them.  Even if an innocent passer by is sometimes killed, it is likely that the overall effect would be positive (stopping uninsured / drunk / drugged drivers before they kill).  

Cheltenhamshire November 17, 2008 3:56 PM

Nicfaz, I know what you mean....but you should say that the possibiliy of 1 innocent bystanders death is a price worth paying if many thousands of lives are saved from the anarchy a lack of actual polcing would bring.  I also agree about the power of communication meaning a car chase need not happen, however I suspect there is not enough actual resouce to make this kind of thing happen hence why chases do occur.  Needless to say if this country were less crappy we would not have a filthy underclass of state subsidised chavs all driving around in uninsured cars etc.  Grrrr.

Phinehas November 17, 2008 5:11 PM

"So Chief Constable, your officers actually stopped the terrorists 20 mins before the explosion apparently because of their erratic driving, but when they fled the scene, they were not pursued. Can you explain that?"

Extreme? Read about the morons planning to kill Obama and shoot up a black school in the States recently (2 separate events). Caught on driving charges. Admittedly, no chases reported, but it shows what an alert copper in a car can prevent.

At the moment pursue/don't pursue is an accountable judgment call. Take away the option and I think you'd find a lot of problems get worse, not better.

Helicopters are great, but they're still rather rare. To achieve decent coverage, you'd have the skies looking -and sounding like Los Angeles.

theonlydt November 17, 2008 5:37 PM

Chase. 95% of the time; chase them. Catch them - then nail them even harder for running away. My experience in education and almost all studies on criminal behaviour indicate that people will run for two reasons; 1. They think they'll get away with it. 2. The risk is worth it. Don't let them get away, don't let the risk of them driving away at high speed seem worth it; an extra 2 years minimum prison sentence. Nail them.

JonBoy1985 November 17, 2008 7:28 PM

Having read the story it seems that the car pulled over for the police initially then sped off, the police were back from the car because of the speeds it was doing and the chase lasted around 2 minutes.

I really dont see what the police could have done in this situation, i dont think they were wreckless in their pursuit. I think this is a time where the driver who fled has to take full responsibility for their actions - it is just an unfortunate situation where people have paid the ultimate price.

JezyG November 18, 2008 12:02 PM

A couple of errors in the above report from Chris. Firstly to pursue or stop a car you do have to be pursuit trained and in the correct car. Most Police forces have grades for both the car's a Police Office can drive and what they can do. In the above case it seems that the Police attempted to stop the car and it made off.

Being that it had a video camera it would of been a car and driver that could pursue. The Police car was 200yards behind when the crash happend so it was the driver of the Vectra who decide to do 80mph and run off. It was the driver who decided that he needed to make off not the Police. Too much tiome is spent bashing the Police and slapping on H&S requirments. In the end the further that driver got at high speeds without being stopped the more likely he was to kill somebody else. He may have been under the influence so crashed later and killed an incocent motorist???

Too many factors involved to make a judgement on the right decision. I suggest Chris you spend a night with some response cop's before passing judgment.

Quattro369 November 18, 2008 12:57 PM

JezyG: Totally agree. Im speaking from experience;

Its unfortunate that any fatalities occur but the police do have a job to do. There are so many systems in place for trying to reduce the risks. For example, a large majority of chases in central london are terminated if some of the following apply:

1. The offender/driver is known to Police (The theory is that you can just go and arrest them later)

2. The driver is very young/inexperienced (This is because it makes it alot more likely they will crash)

3.The driver is prepared to take MAJOR safety risks (Running several red lights at speed, heading the wrong way down a dual carriageway/motorway)

4. Motorcyclist - No Helmet.

Also, the lead police car will give regular updates on weather conditions, traffic volume and pedestrian activity. Info on any of these factors may also call for the chase to be terminated. Its frustrating when that happens, but we can understand why.

Chas: Untrained pursuit drivers CANNOT chase. All they do is start the inital phase and call for a Pursuit Car to come and take over. It would be nice to use helicopters more but sadly in London they are often not available, or the pursuit is cancelled before they can get there.

Training for London Pursuit drivers is an intensive 4 week course and its not just a case of 'turn up and you've passed' : They have VERY high standards. Some drivers have to go back for a 2nd or 3rd time for more training before they qualify.

Any police driver invloved in a serious accident has a 6 month period to wait whilst it is investigated by the IPCC. The driver may even been suspended from driving police vehicles for this period of time. The end result can be points on their 'police driving licence', an order to retake further driver taining or worst case senario: Face criminal charges. Every pursuit driver knows this procedure and the risks they are taking.

Police across the country have different methods too. For example, some forces will literally use their cars to force the driver to come to a stop - or 'T-Pac'. Some forces dont do this as they consider it too dangerous.

What amazes me is that when some 'oink' (driving whilst drunk/drugged or without insurance or a driving licence) fails to stop for police and speeds off killing someone - people try to blame the police! How? At any point the driver could have simply pulled over and given himself up. He should be held liable for ANY deaths, injuries or damage that occurs during the pursuit.

If we banned police chases that would send out a signal to any criminals that if you want to get away with a crime, all you need to do is get in a car and drive off. The police wont chase you.

Also, why would you bother getting Insurance or taking a driving test? If the Police try to stop you to check your documents, you can just speed off. They will simply let you go. Madness!

theop November 18, 2008 6:40 PM

I think most views above including Andy's the police officer are right. But you are also right Chas, it is a complex issue.

I too think the police are right in giving chase. That's one of the many things we all pay them to do. Training is paramount though and more needs to be undertaken by the looks of it ( I am not in the industry so no idea really).

For the specific accident I 'll take a Clarksonian view even as a part joke and say that indeed I could not care less about the dead. They should have stopped at police request like any civilised and sociable person should do (though I am not a parent and I guess they would have had parents who are currently grieving).

It would indeed have become a different matter if many innocent pedestrians etc had been injured on the chase. But even so, think of those pedestrians at the mercy of every drunken idiot if the roads where unpoliced and the police did not ever give chase... At the end of the day (this is a bit black here) I d rather be injured by mistake by police than by an uneduc ated drunk adolescent plonker....

Thats also what I don't get for example in that Brazilian dude story of a few years ago .... The police had reasonable suspicion to give chase when the chap ran away from them. He was gunned down. He was the wrong guy. So be it. He shpould have stopped and didn't. He thus must have had something to hide....

I am just not sad at all when people who ve got something to hide perish under police chase. If those punks don't like it they should f***ing bugger off to Brazil or Greece or Poland (I m greek btw) or wherever they came from.  Always fancied Harry Callahan after all!

Train the police well and let them clean up. If you know you risk being shot on sight if you don't stop, then you ll see how suddenly everybody will behave like mother Teresa... I d like that. Britain is way too democratic for it though.

Human rights and all that until all the punks are up your *rse.

theop November 18, 2008 6:41 PM

Rant over... Sry I forgot:

There is one party I m sad abt in the police chase story - the bloke whose hedge got destroyed - imagine the work the poor sod has to do in the cold to repair his plants....